Posts tagged pro life
Posts tagged pro life
Now I know from this episode of South Park to avoid reading too much into what TV shows are telling us about society and politics with their stories, but I feel that last Sunday’s episode of The Walking Dead established an interesting situation of debate not unlike the pro choice - pro life debate we have in this country.
For those of you who haven’t seen it, The Walking Dead takes place in Georgia after the zombie apocalypse; we follow a group of people who are struggling to survive in the newly lawless world. They find themselves in possession of a young man who they believe could be a threat to them if allowed to live, he is a prisoner in their barn. However, the young man is innocent, has committed no crime; the only thing he has against him is a the (probable) possibility that he may hurt the protagonist group.
I immediately remembered that section in Freakonomics, about how there is a direct correlation between the legalization of abortion in the US and the drop in crime rates. Because most aborted children would’ve grown up in low income high risk families, it is likely that they would’ve grown up to be criminals. If the criminal is sentenced to death before committing the crime, then you get no crime; but you’re punishing an innocent man. Minority Report deals with this ethical question too, but I think America chose the easy way out.
Back to The Walking Dead. My gut knee-jerk reaction is "THEY CANT KILL AN INNOCENT MAN, THEY’RE THE GOOD GUYS!" However, all but one of the members of the group is in favor of murdering the man in the barn— They call it a “death sentence” for having been in company of the bad men, he is guilty by association, like unborn children in low income families. Much like an unwanted pregnancy, it’s a lose-lose situation; something’s got to give “it’s either us, or you.” It’s terrifying to see how the majority of the group sides with something that instinctually seems so irrational: murdering the innocent. Furthermore, the only member of the group who is for protecting an innocent man, Dale, is called “crazy” and “selfish.” Selfish! For wanting to protect the innocent!
The story doesn’t end very well for Dale, and I am left with a sinking feeling… Like him, I am the “selfish” one, because I push so shamelessly for the protection of the innocent unborn. I am outcast for bringing up the topic no one wants to talk about, like Dale, called crazy for suggesting that we should take a risk in the name of honor and self sacrifice. How do I not feel demoralized and hopeless? Why are there increasingly less and less of us who can feel for those who don’t have a voice, and are the others just waiting for our voices to die out, like bad parents waiting for their child to grow tired from crying?
“Wherever I had more abortion, more contraception, there were more broken relationships, more infections, more destruction, more brokenness.”
He says there he heard Our Lady of Guadalupe - revered as the patroness of the unborn - ask him, “Why are you hurting me?”
Kitten number 2 is out and looks just like mommy!
My cat is giving birth as i type. Kitten number 1 is out!
"Abortion is the ultimate form of cheating! You’re cheating nature itself!"
I find the way economics, money, comfort, fear of hardship and other intangible human ideals gain priority over an actual physically present in the womb human life terribly saddening and demoralizing.
How is it that fabricated necessities such as special schools, equipment for the handicapped,…
Look, in the interest of being productive, I highly recommend you look up the costs of raising a child with, say, cerebral palsy, and then imagine doing it on minimum wage. Now try Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease. Now try Edwards Syndrome. Now try spina bifida.
So your answer is to kill the kid? Look up the costs of coping with cancer; and ask yourself whether you’d kill your spouse, parent of yourself because of the cost of treatment.
Human beings are smart, audacious and often passionate. I was born with a fucking hole in my heart, my entire family, including third and fourth cousins and people I haven’t even been able to meet emptied their bank accounts to pay for my surgery at age 1, and even with surgery, I was supposed to be dead by age 5. By your standards, my Mom should’ve just killed me and saved everyone the trouble. Again, life is a priority over money and economics in my particular way of seeing the world; I believe in struggling and pushing through for love. More importantly, I think any human life is more valuable than whatever amount of dollars you name.
No, I wouldn’t, because they are already-existing people with histories, goals, relationships, and obligations, as well as basic cognitive abilities. They also would not be solely relying on my body to survive. It still baffles me how anti-choicers can deny the very important differences between people and fetuses.
By my standards, your Mom should have done what she wanted and was able to do, which was give birth to you. And if she wanted to have an abortion, she should have been able to do that. Your experience is not universal. That is the point. What your mom should have done, or what you will do, does not matter to me or any pro-choicer; only that you have the right and all the means available to do it.
Unborn children have rights, the already born aren’t anymore valuable than them. What criteria do you use to decide who should live and who should die, and why is it not horrible discrimination? Why should anyone have the right over another’s life? Because a mother that bears child can kill it if she wanted to, do you call that right? What makes you think she has that “right”? You want her to have that right, but how do you justify it?
I gave you the criteria in my last reply to you. Fetuses/embryos are not persons, and they do not have rights. If they did, that would present a whole host of problems: would they be counted on the census? Could they be written off as dependents? Would they get a Social Security number? Would they need a “conception certificate?” If that’s when a new person was created, we’d need documentation of that. Would the government be required to step in to every pregnancy to ensure that every person in the womb was being sufficiently taken care of? There are a lot of unknowns about what’s good and bad during pregnancy; would the government have to make those decisions and decide what to enforce? Would every person’s period need to be examined to be sure they hadn’t had a chemical pregnancy? Who would be punished when an abortion was procured? Would a miscarriage be considered manslaughter? Would the pregnant person have to be investigated for murder? They could have caused the miscarriage purposely or through negligence, and now a person is dead. That’s how one would investigate child abuse. Would the government be allowed to dictate how a person gives birth?
My question to you is: why should anyone have the right over another’s body? No other being on earth has the right to be hooked up to another person’s circulatory system and use their organs. When would that right end? Would parents be legally obligated to donate their organs and blood to their children? After all, they chose to have them.
Sex is not a contract to pregnancy. If it was, no one could use contraception. Reproduction is one of the functions of sex. Most people who are having sex are not trying to get pregnant. Nearly half of all US pregnancies are unintended. My sister was conceived while my mom was breastfeeding and using a diaphragm. My parents certainly weren’t trying to conceive then.
A mother who bears a child has birthed the child. I assume that’s what you meant? She no longer has the right to abort it, because it’s no longer inside her, surviving solely off of her body. It’s now a member of society.
I justify abortion because I value people over fetuses, embryos, and blastocysts. I value mothers and their children over a new pregnancy. I value hopes and dreams over unwanted pregnancies. I value hard, sometimes life’s work, dedication, potential, and goals. I value bodily autonomy. I value mental and emotional health. I value physical health. I value careers, relationships, and obligations. I value the ability to control one’s own reproductive future. I value the knowledge that I do not know what is best for everyone. I value opportunities to better oneself. I value freedom. I value the safety of those in abusive relationships. Murder is a leading cause of death during pregnancy; 20% of deaths during pregnancy are due to intimate partner violence. Hundreds of thousands of pregnant people are victims of domestic violence every year, and the violence often escalates because of the pregnancy.
I justify my beliefs because I know that the next attack will be on contraception. I justify my beliefs because the next attack will be on education. I justify my beliefs because there should be no shame in sex. Because no person should be forced to be pregnant after their birth control was sabotaged by their partner, or after they were raped. Because a pregnancy can kill a person. Because two sets of rights cannot logically exist in one body; one set must trump the other. Because a person’s body should never be a crime scene. Because the risk of dying during pregnancy far exceeds the risk of dying during an abortion.
Most importantly, I justify my beliefs because abortion will happen, whether or not it is legal. Because hangers, knitting needles, car battery acid, plant poison, stairs, fists, soapy water, and unregulated herbs and drugs should not be surgical instruments, and dirty motel rooms and kitchens should not be operating rooms, and doctors shouldn’t ever have to ask, “Who did this to you?” when a person comes in hemorrhaging, with a raging fever and infection and disintegrating organs hanging out of their bodies. Because in poorer countries, where medical care is not readily available, the consequences of illegal abortion and forced birth are more horrific than you can comprehend.
That’s how I justify it.
Why I’m Pro-Choice (Feministe)
All of these problems are related. While this started out as an argument for the protection of unborn children with disabilities, it quickly came to cover other related issues.
“Reproduction is one of the functions of sex. Most people who are having sex are not trying to get pregnant.”
In that statement lies the source of all of the atrocities that are commited against unborn children throughout history. While reflecting on our discussion, I was reminded of the mass graves found in ancient greek and roman ruins with filled with infant corpses. Historians agree that these were pits in which societies threw newborns with deformities and those born out of ilegitimate relations. The selfishness through which people choose themselves over their unexpected, innocent, defenseless offspring and relief themselves of the responsibility that having sex brings is not new at all. All of the burocratic issues you mentioned, and for that matter, the special services and equipement that people with disabilities recieve are, albeit useful, fabrications of contemporary society. I’m not dissing the value of special assistance and/or governement burocracy, but I severely admonish how society uses those fabricated necessities to justify the killing of unborn children.
Returning to your statement on how reproduction is but one function of sex; I believe that your saying this is a manifestation of how society has distorted and corrupted sexuality. Sexuality has emotional, physical and reproductive facets. In recent times, our culture has tended to rip apart these facets from each other to fit our own convenience and selfishness. EG: I would like to orgasm but I can’t be bothered to build an emotional relationship with another, let alone raise a child, so I’ll engage in casual sex using contraception, or masturbation for that matter. EG2: I would like to have strong feelings of emotion for the person I’m currently dating, having sex with them may catalyze those stonger feelings into existence. I’ll have sex with them and hope for the best in the relationship, but I’ll use a contraceptive because having a child isn’t what I have in mind at the moment. EG3: I would like to have a child, but I haven’t been able to establish a solid relationship with a significant other, my time is running out, so I’ll pay someone to give me their seed in a warped, artifical, loveless act of reproduction.
I’ve described three real life cases of the distortion of sexuality, and of course you reading this probably take me as a judgemental prick who won’t accept other lifestyles. Say what you will, but I’m a believer in nature’s wisdom. I’m also a romantic, so I like to believe in maintining sexuality as a special ritual, rather than ripping it apart to fit my own selfish wants. My point? If people used their bodies responsibly, maintaining sexuality in the special pedestal where it should be, not distorting it as they do; problems such as the necessity for abortion and artificial contraceptives wouldn’t be necessary. Of course, it’s not really my place to tell other people how to live their lives and sex lives; if you want to destroy sexuality, I’m not entitled to stop you; but when your irresponsible and selfish acts are attacking people: voiceless, unborn, innocent children who get mercilessly slaughtered daily; I’ll be damned if I won’t speak in their defense.
tl;dr: You’re welcome to be as irresponsible as you want with your sexuality and your body. But when conception occurs, the true and natural consequence of your sexual act, the child, shouldn’t have to fall victim of your selfishness.
ps: I know you’re going to bring up pregnancy in the case of rape. I’ve never been raped, and I’m sure it is a traumatic horrible experience. I don’t wish it upon anyone. The child who is concieved from the act, however, is blameless for the crime of his father; and his or her execution is not justified.
“Of course, it’s not really my place to tell other people how to live their lives and sex lives”
Even though this was exactly what you were doing, at length, and demonizing them while doing it.
‘Irresponsible and selfish act’. Why do fools speak of responsibility that they do not have to be a part of? ‘Be responsible, pregnant person, I’ll be over here having nothing to do with it except wagging my fucking finger at you. You should let others control and enslave your body for the sake of /their/ morals, because that’s not selfish of /them/ to expect that of you and demonize if you dare speak out against being treated as an expendable incubator.’
On rape your response is the same hollow, insincere bullshit that says ‘oh, well that’s terrible and all, but you should have the baby anyway’. Thanks for erasing the experiences, realities, and feelings of rape victims, reducing them to ‘murderers’ for not wanting to carry and birth a constant reminder of their traumatic experience. Whoo for revictimizing eh?
I wish anti choicers would stop pretending to be so noble, as if they have some kind of moral high ground when they’re just proposing the most horrific things.
I stand by my previous statements and I’ll just add the following:
When I ask you to take responsibility for your actions, “being over here having nothing to do with it except wagging my fucking finger at you,” I don’t do it because I take pleasure in judging you; I do it because I firmly believe that there is a voiceless victim that is being killed because of you’re irresponsibility. If you were to get drunk and kill someone while drinking and driving, society would demand justice of you, even though they have nothing to do with it either.
Also, I’m not imposing my morals on you, this is why I don’t demand that you stop using non-abortive artificial contraceptives (although you’ll see from my previous post that I’m severely disagree with their use). Again, I’m vehemently and shamelessly demanding that the unborn child’s life be respected, in your own words, that he or she has the right to his or her own life and body.
I do not care if you take pleasure in it or not, it’s still just wagging your finger with no respect to the reality of the person you are wagging your finger at. Don’t talk about ‘standing up for victims’, you spit on rape victims with your statements. Responsibility? What would you know about that? Given this is often said by people who are not that pregnant people, it’s a bit asinine to talk about how they should be responsible for something you’re not going through. Your comparison to ‘drunk driving’ is faulty, because what you’re suggesting is that society treat pregnant people as public property and ‘step in’ as they please and enslave others. You have no moral ground to stand on, you just pretend what you would do is somehow not morally repugnant. You straight out ignore it.
You know what’s irresponsible? Bringing a child into a world where you cannot take care of it and largely our society will not take care of it either, what about society’s responsibility to take care of the people in it? We hardly ever do, we are bigoted toward them and instead say stuff like ‘pull yourself up your bootstraps’ or that they deserved what they got. We live in a society that gets pregnant people murdered for being pregnant. There are so many problems in this world, bringing a child into a fucked up world where people support reproductive slavery without batting an eye, also probably not ‘responsible’. How about we as a society get more responsible before we start pointing fingers at pregnant people.
You are, in fact, imposing your morals on every pregnant person. You are supporting a movement that does that /exact/ thing, so you are, that same movement /does/ work to get contraceptives banned as well. You don’t get to demand anything, it’s not your body in the first place. And pregnant people are not your expendable vessels there to bow at your whim. The reason you’re not ashamed is because you are so arrogant as to believe that your morals trump another person’s life. You have no respect for that person, their experiences, their dreams, their goals, their friends and family. These are bonds already made and already present. This is their /actual/ life that they have already been living, over a potential life. I think the /actual/ life deserves more than a little respect, more than the lip service than you give it.
You don’t care about life, you care about controlling others and binding them to the role you deem their entirety of worth on, and a narrow-minded clinging to your screwed up morals.
I think I’ve already answered most of your arguments in my previous posts, so I’m going to go ahead and call this a pretty productive discussion and ended for now, unless bebinn has anything to add.